We should try to read when new members post stuff

[Diowe]

And it certainly would not be right for any of us to miss out on valuable writing time while critiquing the work of hit-and-run users.  There have been a few already who have posted their work and never anything else.  Some sites have a point system where your work will not be available for critique until after you have critiqued so much yourself.  I would like to do something like that as well, but not for a while yet.

I've been lax in critiquing for two reasons: I'm in an active on-line crit group which takes up a lot of writing time already (although I love them and I've learned a lot, not just from being critiqued, but from having to critique them). Second, most subs I've seen posted here are so different from what I write that I feel I have very little to offer in the way of advice and may end up causing more harm than good. The fact that I haven't critiqued much is the very reason I haven't posted anything to critique.... but I like this idea Patrick and I've heard of it being used in other places. I understand why you want to wait but maybe, once you get these guidelines in place, you'll not only have more critiquers, but also a wider variety of critiquers... Not sure how you plan on setting this up but I think it would be a good idea to have people keep earning critiques... say, three critiques earns a person one submission. To submit again would require three more critiques (these numbers are purely arbitrary and only for example) I don't think it would work as well if you let people sub as much and as often as they'd like after performing a certain number of critiques. Otherwise, once the quota is meant, they may never crit again... just a thought.

[Chelc]

Hope I didn't seem to have too much snarl with that last post.  Truth is, Chelc's comment about being more enlightened is also spot on.  Yammering about whatever here seems to amplify the fact that we are writers & this is our playground.  Whatever it is we're discussing, where we're discussing it & who we're discussing with is helping to foster a greater effort.

And JW, you once thought I was evolved?

May I present to you our whiz-kid-with-the-wisdom-of-beyond!

Chelc, take a bow or something.

Patrick - I've been mulling over ideas as to how to ferret out the hit-and-runners.  I recall screenplay sites from a few years ago where you could get feedback on a script provided that you volunteer to look at three others first.  That may seem a bit militant, but I quike like the "initiation" aspect of it all.  It could be more simple - something like after 10 posts on any topic, access to the first-five-pages forum is enabled.

SIDEBAR:  If I'm starting to feel a bit busy with forum chat, I can only imagine how Patrick must feel. 

For that, I propose a group karma point.  On three.

Ready?

1... 2... 3  (click)

  There's my bow  
And I gave the 2 of you karmas.  
(is there a bit too much mushy gushy in this topic or what?  )
And, Audal, it is very strange reading your stuff now with the mindset that you're a dude.  

[Chelc]

I suppose my excuse for not giving people critical feedback is that I really don't feel I have the position to. You guys know more than I do, and even if I have an oppinion on someone's work, I'm hesitant to say it because I don't want to sound conceited.
You people can give me all the criticism you want; you know what you're doing! ;)

[justwrite]

Chelc..WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. You will learn from it and you will be surprised by how much you do know. You may be young but you are as intelligent as any of us, and you are quite the writer. Please don't blush, gush, whatever. I am only speaking the truth.

Now to what Diowe said. I think when I am awake I might start a thread about how to set this up..or one of you west coast midwest types where it isn't 1 AM go right ahead. I want to stop but my damn fingers keep going. Help!

Diowe, how many members are in your group? I have to do about five crits a week, 20 pages each. (and don't worry about mine..i'm fine.)

[Diowe]

Well, you've got me beat, jw, hands down. I'm only doing two a week, but still it takes a lot of my time. For me to concentrate enough on a crit or on my own writing I require, unfortunately, an empty house. Absolutely no interruptions. I've been wasting a lot of time on this forum lately because I have no empty house until the kids go back to school. But once they do, well, hopefully I'll get down to business again.

[Chelc]

Chelc..WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. You will learn from it and you will be surprised by how much you do know. You may be young but you are as intelligent as any of us, and you are quite the writer. Please don't blush, gush, whatever. I am only speaking the truth.

kay, kay.  sure, sure.
I guess I'm off to sleep now...gotta get used to going to bed early in 2 weeks anyway *sigh*
And I think my mom is mad that I'm online right now because I kinda came home from a party two hours later than I said I would tonight...oops 

[teen-writer]

To comment on the major points made:

I am totally for the idea of having to critique other's works before you post your own. A good way to tell people that, I think, is to send it out in the e-mail that they get right after they join the forum. Then, just to remind them, Patrick can put a sticky in the query review and the first 5 pages sections about critiquing others.

And Chelc, your opinion is valued just like everyone else's. Hey, I'm even younger and I'm expressing what I think. I think that our opinions are valued even more for young adult works that the adults here write. We are the intended audience, after all.

And the off-topic-ness of this forum is wonderful. When I'm feeling frustrated with writing, it helps me vent and refresh, so I can return to writing. And it also shows me that there ARE other people like me in the world - that I'm not the only one driven crazy by the common emotions and thoughts of a writer.

[audal]

most subs I've seen posted here are so different from what I write that I feel I have very little to offer in the way of advice and may end up causing more harm than good.

I feel exactly the same way, and have made sure that when I did dish out a critique, I mentioned that I was WAY out of my element.  And then there's the ol' too-many-cooks theory... when it comes to showing a completed work (or even a partial), I use one reliable & fierce reader who has known me & what I try to do for almost 15 years.  I may on occasion seek out a third opinion, but that's about it.  I also fully trust my own ability to spot the missteps when I'm proofing my own work.  This is yet again another lesson learned from screenwriting - employ every opinion on the table and your work will read like a bad exercise in cut-and-paste.

Because I am typing this while fully asleep, I have sorta let my original point off its leash & can't seem to find it.

I guess it's all to say that I'm happy to answer questions & look at a query letter, but I just won't comment for the sake of making noise.  I have to be fully sure of the answer.  I have to know that I'm being useful and not just wildly entertaining!

[justwrite]

well, you mid and west coasters are all asleep, but I'll respond here. Daniel, I agree with you about getting yourself out there and that kid's perception is really crucial for a YA. I want that perspective myself. Now, Audal, perhaps you are a more experienced writer than me, but I value the "too many cooks" concept. Too many inept cooks, maybe, but the composite wisdom of the ten or so brilliant writers in my two groups is priceless. A few are more astute than others, some are a little off base, but, I find each one brings a unique perspective to the table, and since we are trying to appeal to as many readers as possible, I don't think many, many opinions hurt. Of course you have to boil down the essence of the critiques without letting anyone steal your spark. I saw the film Adpatation, so I can understand the issue regarding screenplays, since the issues are probably going to be major plot directions and scene changes. But with novel writing, the criticisms are usually more structural. I have had people make ridiculous suggestions, so I just ignore it. I never revise until all the crits are in. In fact i make a merge file and see where all the trouble spots fall. (remarkably the comments tend to cluster with differeing suggestions, which tells me something needed to be done.) The problem with crits is you just have to know when to stop. People will always find something.

One more point here: As writers we'd better learn to take criticism and learn how to rewrite. The one member of my group who has a book deal, (a YA literary fiction that comes out in October 2008) has had to do three major rewrites for her editor. Huge sweeping rewrites with major character adjustments, plot adjustments. We worked through it with her and she could not disagree with her editor. The editor said, oh, this character is not likable...blah, blah...

So, the point I am making is that no manuscript is finished until it's printed and on a shelf. You have to be willing to look at things differently and change accordingly. Of course someone said to me once (not from my groups), no kid is going to relate to a fat girl and a blind boy on a strange adventure. That I igonored. That was like telling me I had to write a different book.

Over, monologue over..someone else can have the soapbox. i think I better go make breakfast.

[Chelc]

Well whoever said that to you JW is crazy...an overweight girl and a blind boy are so uncommon in books that I'm surprised agents arent coming to you and screaming HELLO! QUERY ME! ;)

[justwrite]

  thank YOU!!!

[Chelc]

No prob.
So, did you like my idea for a title for you?
 

[justwrite]

  uh...ya want me to lie, so you never believe me when I compliment you? I don't think so.

[Chelc]

I know, I was kidding. ;)

[justwrite]

I could hear the smirk in your words.  ;)