Author Topic: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!  (Read 22488 times)

Offline TerryRodgers

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2015, 07:42:21 AM »
Quote
However, if you're doing something set in, say, 1800s Ireland, pretty sure you won't find a melting pot in there.

Although, as I love to point out, a story set before modern medicine damn well better have disabled people in it.

And at least one lepper colony.

I met a woman who runs a leper hospital! I danced with her at my brother's wedding.

Sorry, but back on topic -- if you're doing a historical novel and characters are having sex, then characters should also be getting pregnant. They didn't have the Pill back then.

Or Bathed. Many in Western Europe in medieval times really didn't bathe except on special occasions. Weeks and months in between. No deodorant. Bath water used by multiple people. All sorts of weird rituals in the middle ages.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 09:28:49 AM by TerryRodgers »

Offline Falthor

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2015, 08:15:21 AM »
My Take on diversity is that it can be a tool but it shouldn't be the driving force behind your book unless that is the story you are telling.

I purposefully left the details of most of my characters ambiguous, I'm pretty sure I refer to Steve and his Internet Tan, and at one point I have Amaya referring to how white her skin is, but other than that I generally don't talk about it.

Unless my story is about racism and discrimination, diversity should be there but only as color for the characters backstory and reACTIONS.
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Offline Pandean

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2015, 08:18:01 AM »
Quote
However, if you're doing something set in, say, 1800s Ireland, pretty sure you won't find a melting pot in there.

Although, as I love to point out, a story set before modern medicine damn well better have disabled people in it.

And at least one lepper colony.

I met a woman who runs a leper hospital! I danced with her at my brother's wedding.

Sorry, but back on topic -- if you're doing a historical novel and characters are having sex, then characters should also be getting pregnant. They didn't have the Pill back then.

They had pennyroyal and tansy and other natural abortionificants though. Of course, those could also easily kill you too.

-did research on this for BOTR-
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Offline awarwick

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2015, 08:23:45 AM »
Quote
However, if you're doing something set in, say, 1800s Ireland, pretty sure you won't find a melting pot in there.

Although, as I love to point out, a story set before modern medicine damn well better have disabled people in it.

And at least one lepper colony.

I met a woman who runs a leper hospital! I danced with her at my brother's wedding.

Sorry, but back on topic -- if you're doing a historical novel and characters are having sex, then characters should also be getting pregnant. They didn't have the Pill back then.

Or Bathed. Like some really didn't bathe except on special occasions. Weeks and months in between. No deodorant. Bath water used by multiple people. All sorts of weird rituals in the middle ages.

Seriously!!! The number of historical books that I've read where the people are described as smelling nice and they're clean yada yada...they bathed maybe once a week on Sundays. And you never read about how the towns smell like filth and sickness and s***.

Offline TerryRodgers

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2015, 08:44:40 AM »
Only the rich bathed often and often didn't necessarily mean every day. They believed in hygiene, just not to the extent of today's standards.

And think about anyone on a ship for months at a time.  :no:

Offline Pandean

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2015, 08:51:51 AM »


Or Bathed. Like some really didn't bathe except on special occasions. Weeks and months in between. No deodorant. Bath water used by multiple people. All sorts of weird rituals in the middle ages.

Seriously!!! The number of historical books that I've read where the people are described as smelling nice and they're clean yada yada...they bathed maybe once a week on Sundays. And you never read about how the towns smell like filth and sickness and s***.
[/quote]

If anyone is smelling sweet and nice in the medieval ages they have to be a time traveler. And it was more like once a month, lol, you're giving them too much credit. And there's sh** in the streets and what not.

This reminds me of a Cracked thing, hold one...
And think about anyone on a ship for months at a time.  :no:

In BOTR, there's a line where Uriel meets her fiancee right after she's been on a ship for a month+ and she thinks to herself:

"I wonder what he thinks of me?" and then answers herself with "Probably that I'm dirty."
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Offline Pandean

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2015, 08:53:16 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwA1VeYpvaM

If Disney Cartoons Were Historically Accurate.

This reminds me of the current conversation.
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Offline AlythiaB

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2015, 09:15:53 AM »


Or Bathed. Like some really didn't bathe except on special occasions. Weeks and months in between. No deodorant. Bath water used by multiple people. All sorts of weird rituals in the middle ages.

Seriously!!! The number of historical books that I've read where the people are described as smelling nice and they're clean yada yada...they bathed maybe once a week on Sundays. And you never read about how the towns smell like filth and sickness and s***.

If anyone is smelling sweet and nice in the medieval ages they have to be a time traveler. And it was more like once a month, lol, you're giving them too much credit. And there's sh** in the streets and what not.

This reminds me of a Cracked thing, hold one...
And think about anyone on a ship for months at a time.  :no:

In BOTR, there's a line where Uriel meets her fiancee right after she's been on a ship for a month+ and she thinks to herself:

"I wonder what he thinks of me?" and then answers herself with "Probably that I'm dirty."
[/quote]

Haha! Yeah, if you time traveled to Athens, you'd better avoid puddles because people used to toss the contents of their chamber pots out the front door. Then the city dung collector would shovel it all into his wagon. Bleh!

But here's the thing about all this accuracy... If you are creating a totally fake/magical world (perhaps inspired by times and places in out world), then really you can do whatever you want when building. Magic may be the main technology, and the world seems medieval, but that doesn't mean people have to uphold the same standards as they used to in days of olde. They can bathe every day and use herbs that don't exist in this world in their soaps etc, etc. However common sense would dictate that anyone, in any world, would smell after sailing for months. Lol
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Offline AlythiaB

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2015, 11:19:14 AM »
Anytime I see a historical movie where two characters kiss (basically any time from the 17th C. and back), all I can think of is this comic:




Bahaha! Nice.
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gckatz

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2015, 11:23:18 AM »
Hold your horses, everyone, because this conversation about diversity has taken a turn for the ironic.

When you think of people in the past being dirty, you're thinking about Western Europe, where people did indeed wallow in their own poop. However, outside of the West, there were many cultures that valued hygiene and bathed regularly. The Vikings were so clean they got all the English chicks. An Andalusian Muslim invented deodorant in the 9th century, as well as popular types of both shampoo and toothpaste. Alythia mentioned Athens? They invented the shower, not to mention the strigil (ah, the fresh smell of olive oil). The conquistadores were amazed to discover how clean the Aztecs and their cities were. And that's just a few I know about off the top of my head.

TL;DR Check your assumptions. Europe is not the world.

Offline Pandean

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2015, 01:26:04 PM »
I was under the assumption we were just talking about medieval Western Europe. :zip:
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CillanXC

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2015, 01:36:57 PM »
Hold your horses, everyone, because this conversation about diversity has taken a turn for the ironic.

When you think of people in the past being dirty, you're thinking about Western Europe, where people did indeed wallow in their own poop. However, outside of the West, there were many cultures that valued hygiene and bathed regularly. The Vikings were so clean they got all the English chicks. An Andalusian Muslim invented deodorant in the 9th century, as well as popular types of both shampoo and toothpaste. Alythia mentioned Athens? They invented the shower, not to mention the strigil (ah, the fresh smell of olive oil). The conquistadores were amazed to discover how clean the Aztecs and their cities were. And that's just a few I know about off the top of my head.

TL;DR Check your assumptions. Europe is not the world.

 :clap:

ETA: One of the popular manga/anime while I was in Japan was Thermae Romae, which basically insinuated that the Romans originally got the idea for bathhouses from the Japanese. ;D
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 01:39:25 PM by CillanXC »

Offline Falthor

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2015, 01:43:11 PM »
simpson's did it first...
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CillanXC

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2015, 01:44:05 PM »
simpson's did it first...

Oh, I didn't know that...never watched the Simpsons!

Offline AlythiaB

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Re: Editor Points Out Agents Gatekeeping Diverse Books!
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2015, 10:48:39 AM »
Hold your horses, everyone, because this conversation about diversity has taken a turn for the ironic.

When you think of people in the past being dirty, you're thinking about Western Europe, where people did indeed wallow in their own poop. However, outside of the West, there were many cultures that valued hygiene and bathed regularly. The Vikings were so clean they got all the English chicks. An Andalusian Muslim invented deodorant in the 9th century, as well as popular types of both shampoo and toothpaste. Alythia mentioned Athens? They invented the shower, not to mention the strigil (ah, the fresh smell of olive oil). The conquistadores were amazed to discover how clean the Aztecs and their cities were. And that's just a few I know about off the top of my head.

TL;DR Check your assumptions. Europe is not the world.

I was under the assumption we were just talking about medieval Western Europe. :zip:

Haha! Yeah, we did get a bit off topic in there. But, all bathhouses aside, I'm pretty sure we were just talking about novels set in that place and time (and accuracy)--no one claimed it was the world. Arthurian legends and the fascination with medieval times has captivated interest on and off throughout history. It experienced a 'reawakening' in the early 19th century due to famous publications at that time and the gothic revival, so it's not surprising that people still admire it and put it into their writing. I, personally, will always love stories with castles, but that's not to say I don't love stories set all over the world. :)

On a side note, Greeks did love to bathe. But they also had a communal butt sponge for pooping in public. (Being last in line sucked for more than one reason back then. lol) I think it's safe to say our standards for 'clean' have changed over the years, all over the world.
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